A path less traveled.
Sometimes we think we know where we want to head but life has an interesting way of guiding us down paths we may never have thought would be in the realm of possibility. Eric Oberstein walks us through his journey from Public Policy to producing Grammy-winning records.
You’re listening to Episode 53 of the Music-Preneur Mindset Podcast.
Hello! You’re listening to Episode 53: Music-Preneur Spotlight: Eric Oberstein.
I’m your host, Suz – a mindset coach helping music professionals get clear on their goals and find the time to get it all done while maintaining a healthy work/life balance.
Goals are a funny thing. Sometimes we think we know where we want to head but life has an interesting way of guiding us down paths we may never have thought would be in the realm of possibility.
That’s why it’s so important to always check back in with your goals and reflect on what you’ve accomplished so far – is life pointing you in a different direction? Do you need to change your goals or get back on course?
This week’s Spotlight hits VERY close to home because my guest, Eric Oberstein, and I grew up together in the same town! Eric was the quiet one, compared to his older brother, Matt – also an impressive talent in music as the Music Director of the Philharmonic of Southern NJ.
Just when we thought we had Eric pegged for the next star reporter at The New York Times, he decides to go and win a bunch of Grammys and become a highly-respected producer in the Latin Jazz world. Go figure.
We sat down over winter break to discuss his fascinating journey from research writer to big band music producer and what he’s learned along the way. I’ll let him tell his own story, but I want you to keep something in the front of mind while you’re listening – what have you kept yourself from taking action on simply because it didn’t seem possible?
Think about that a bit and enjoy this spotlight!
Suz: All right so I’m here with Eric Oberstein, and this is a high school reunion of sorts. This is really cool I’ve been friends of Eric and his brother Matthew, who is also in music, for quite some time and we have a very long journey of I guess elementary school really, so it’s been nice to have a fellow Floral Park-ian, Floral Park knight here on this podcast so thank you for doing this.
You’ve had a really interesting path in the music industry and it’s really different than anybody else that I’ve had on as a guest, and so I’m really excited. You are a Grammy and Latin Grammy award-winning producer among many other hats that you wear, and when I think a lot of, you know, do-it-yourself musicians – when they think about winning Grammys and they, you know, figure, “I have to be signed to a major label” or “I have to be a famous touring musician” or, you know, “There has to be a specific way that I have to achieve these milestones.”
You’ve been extremely accomplished and down a plethora of different avenues, but mainly as an educator and consultant within your work of higher education, and working at acclaimed art centers throughout the country, so tell us a little bit more about the path that you’ve been on since graduating high school and how you’ve kind of created your own path and through these institutions had such success as a music producer among other things.
Eric: Sure. Well, thanks so much, Suz, for having me and it feels like ages ago and yesterday that we wear in high school and elementary school and I know we were talking earlier about just our group of friends that were just super into the arts and music and somehow here we are still doing it in some fashion.
Suz: Yeah!
Eric: But yeah, you know, I grew up playing music and playing in band and started in elementary school and junior high and high school and, you know, loved it. I did marching band and stage band and talent shows and my best friends and I – we started a rock band in high school – you know, the infamous Staircase D.
Suz: Oh yeah! I think I might have your T-shirt still.
Eric: Oh my god. Yeah, but you know that was one of those early entrepreneurial/artistic experiments. Yeah, you know, we were just –
Suz: A right of passage!
Eric: That’s right! We were just kids having fun, trying to stay out of trouble, and we all loved music so we started a rock band. And we sold t-shirts to help fund the record and actually went to a recording studio in White Stone to record.
Suz: Oh, that’s right!
Eric: And it was our first experience in a professional recording studio and that got me interested in music recording studios and then the summer before senior year, I actually interned at a studio in Manhattan in Greenwich Village called Campo Studios, which is no longer around, I don’t think. It’s interesting that used to be the home studio for
Sessions@AOL wayback in the day
Suz: Oh, that’s right!
Eric: I don’t know if you remember Sessions@AOL but they’d bring in each huge artists who had just released records and bring them in for an acoustic session and interview.
So those early experiences in the studio just got me curious about a career in music and what that might look like. I actually thought about studying Music Business in college but it was right around the time of Napster and little did we know that the music business was about to change dramatically.
Suz: Right.
Eric: And for whatever reason I had this feeling that well maybe I should just pursue a liberal arts education as opposed to specializing in music business right out of high school. So I ended up applying to Duke and ended up going there actually thinking that I was going to study journalism.
Suz: See! You know, that’s what I wanted to ask you about because I just always had you booked to be like on The New York Times writing, you know, editorials –
Eric: Yeah – so a fun story for everyone listening is that I used to work on the school newspaper, The Shield, and Suz’s mom was our adviser both for me and my brother and I loved it and that was such a huge education for me, learning experience for me. And for me, at the time, writing and music word were my two things and I got to Duke and Duke doesn’t have a Journalism Major. There’s a certificate which sits under the Public Policy major.
And I took the intro class for Public Policy, which I learned later was the weed out class for the major, and it weeded me out – very quickly. I realize that problem sets and memo writing we’re not my thing. So I was surfing the course catalog for the following spring semester, and I came upon a seminar on Cuba.
Suz: Okay.
Eric: And my mom’s Cuban born. I grew up around that side of my family and that culture and especially the music. So I have these fond memories of going to my grandparents home in Queens growing up and we’d have these parties in the backyard. And sometimes they’d get a DJ, which was fun, and they play all this Cuban music and Latin music and salsa and merengue and I just loved it.
But I, you know, I didn’t know as much about the history of my family as I would have liked to, so I took this Cultural Anthropology seminar – I had no clue what cultural anthropology meant, but I just loved the class and actually was able to focus some of my research that semester on Cuban music.
And I thought “Man, this is cool! I get to combine my love of music with my family’s history. Why don’t I explore this little bit?” So I ultimately became a cultural anthropology major and really focused my research on Cuban music looking actually at Cuba and its music following the fall of the Soviet Union and looked at what young people were creating and writing in the 90s during a very difficult economic time there.
But through a Cuban hip-hop style called Timba, they were sort of using music and metaphor as a way to speak to their daily realities. And along the way, I actually did a semester back in New York City for an Arts & Media program that Duke has and I interned at Jazz at Lincoln Center at Columbus Circle Wynton Marsalis’s organization.
And that was really the first time that I was on the inside of a major performing arts institution I had this music background, but I really didn’t know much about how arts organizations were run and what that looked like on the inside.
That experience just opened my eyes to something that I didn’t know existed before but totally matched who I was – meaning a passion for music, a passion for presenting the arts, but also and knack for managing and producing and organizing projects and presenting artists which in a way it was something that we were doing since we were kids.
Suz: Right, right.
Eric: You know, so I just realized this is actually a career path, that you could do this. So that sort of lit a fire under me and I came back to Duke my junior year and immediately started interning at Duke Performances, where I work now actually, and Duke Performances is Duke’s professional performing arts presenter. So we present a whole season of music, dance and theater in about a dozen different spaces on Duke’s campus.
And anyway, I interned there, I actually interned at Jazz at Lincoln Center again and decided to go to grad school in Arts Administration. I actually came back to New York to Columbia to do that because I felt like, okay I had these really great internship experiences, but I want to learn how to run an arts organization from top to bottom.
Suz: Right.
Eric: So grad school was a tremendous learning experience for me. I really felt like I wanted to come back to New York to do that. That this city just felt like the perfect laboratory to learn from the best in the business and to be close to all of, you know, all these incredible artists and arts organizations. It was sort of a crash course in every aspect of the field from Marketing to Fundraising to Arts Law to Accounting and all sorts of things that we think about in our work.
Suz: Right.
Eric: You know, types of organizations – nonprofit, for profit, the role of presenters.. I took a class from a Broadway publicist… and I interned at Alvin Ailey during grad school. I don’t have a dance background, but I wanted to learn more about dance – and that was tremendous! And, anyway I think the formative moment for me that really changed my life during grad school was that I went to a concert symphony space on the Upper West Side. My brother, cause it all comes back to family, my brother was working at the time at Symphony Space.
Suz: Okay.
Eric: And he got me a ticket to this show by Latin Jazz Big Band called the Afro Latin Jazz Orchestra. The music director and band leader is a musician named Arturo O’Farrill, who’s Cuban American. His father was the legendary Cuban composer Chico O’Farrill who worked with all the greats in jazz and Latin music.
They had actually been founded at Jazz at Lincoln Center as the Second Resident Big Band next to Wynton Marsalis’ Orchestra – but focused on Latin music… Latin Jazz. And they actually were there when I interned, but they they left to start their own nonprofit – to do more performing and recording and education work.
And they moved to Symphony Space, that was their new performance home. So my brother got me a ticket and I go to the show and I filled out one of those surveys in the program that nobody ever fills out. I actually filled it out and then I flipped it over, and I wrote Arturo a note.
I said, “Hi I’m Eric. I’m half Cuban, I’m a musician. I’m a big fan of yours and the orchestra’s I’m in grad school now studying Arts Management. I know you have a new nonprofit. If you need any help let me know.”
Suz: That’s fantastic.
Eric: So I didn’t hear from him for ten months.
Suz: Oh jeez – you’re like, “This is why nobody fills out those surveys!”
Eric: Right? Yeah. But I got an email from Arturo’s wife and they had found my note in their house, I think literally on the kitchen table.
Suz: Spring cleaning!
Eric: That’s right! And they said, “Oh my god, Eric, we just found your note! Are you still interested in helping us? We’d love to meet with you!” And I actually had just finished my internship at Alvin Ailey. I was about to start my master’s thesis and felt like, “I don’t know if I have time.” But I thought, “Are you crazy? This is your passion! You love this music.”
So I went to their home and we met and I realized very quickly that we had a lot of work to do together. And there was no staff, there is a small board and I came on board as Arturo’s Assistant Director, basically his intern for that year in my second year of grad school. And slowly but surely just helped them bit by bit – writing grants, helping them produce their concerts, raising money. I went to Cuba for the first time with him. I actually visited the house
my mom lived in as a child outside of Havana, so really heavy emotional stuff.
Suz: Definitely!
Eric: And it felt wonderful to work with an ensemble that I love that was sort of tied to my family’s history and the music that I loved. I ended up doing one more year of school up at Harvard. I studied Arts and Education because I was interested in running arts organizations but that had a strong educational focus. And I was coming to the table more as an arts administrator but wanting to sort of have a crash course on the education side.
And I wanted to learn about the arts in higher education which is an interest of mine and curriculum development and community arts education, arts policy things like that. That’s really what I focused my year up in Cambridge on, but halfway through that year I wrote Arturo a note. And I said, “You know, you really need a full time staff member someone with a steady hand on the wheel every day and I want to be that guy.” And looking back this was ridiculous
of me because I was 23, 24 barely, and was basically asking to run an arts organization in New York City, right where I had training and internships but no formal professional experience. So to his credit he said, “You know, you’re right let me take it back to the board, and let’s see what we can do.”
So in the months that followed they applied for some grants, they raised some money from the board, and they actually were able to cobble together a starting salary for me. So the summer after I graduated I moved back to New York, August of 2010, started as the Executive Director of the Afro-Latin Jazz Alliance.
Suz: That’s awesome!
Eric: Yeah sort of my best education in that it threw me into the deep at the pool.
Suz: Yeah I think that’s the beauty of being that young. I mean I did similar things in terms of just like going after what you wanted even though you’re just like, like you look back and who was I to think…?
Like you know, I think we doubt ourselves more as we get older but you know I think it’s interesting – this balance of, you know, chasing this education to learn as much as you can learn and what I love about it and I experienced something similar in terms of you don’t even think that the career in this is possible until you start taking a class that opens, you know, your eyes to that.
But also just that blind passion where just like, you know, if you knew too much you might not actually make that decision. But you’re like, “No. This is what I want. I’m just going to ask for it.” Like you know why not?
Eric: Yes.
Suz: So it’s like a nice balance of a learning but also just doing. Like just acting on what you want and I think that’s awesome.
Eric: That’s right. Yeah it’s sort of funny to think back thinking, “What was I thinking?” And then people often ask me now, “So what was it like running that organization? Didn’t you feel overwhelmed?” And I think I was so scared, but I I don’t quite remember being scared.
Suz: Because you don’t know anything different. I feel like, what’s the alternative? Not having a job? And that’s scary!
Eric: Certainly being in your early-to-mid twenties in New York you need to pay the bills somehow -So I remember just getting out of bed every day and going to work and you know working in a tiny office and just each day, somehow, trying to push it forward.
Suz: Right.
Eric: And some days are better than others. Some days we had these huge wins, and other days it was a lot tougher, but I felt fortunate in that I would have the trust of this organization and Arturo and the board.
And, you know, I was a staff of one for a year and recruited an army of interns to help me. And then our second year, we raised enough money to hire a second staff person. And just slowly but surely built it.
But the orchestra already had this pedigree – they were founded at Jazz at Lincoln Center, they had won a Grammy. I was working with some of the best Latin jazz musicians in the world, and we were just sort of doing the work to help build this home for this orchestra and the work that he was doing – the performing he was doing, the commissioning of new music, recording projects, touring nationally and internationally, and then also teaching in the schools in New York City were members of the orchestra.
And other teaching artists were going into a low income neighborhoods in teaching not just Latin jazz but music to young people – really kids who had never held an instrument in their hands before.
We were fortunate to grow up in a community that had a really strong music program. But I think, sadly, it’s not the norm anymore. That music education has been cut all across the country and we just forget that kids don’t have that same experience, which ultimately I think is problematic if we think about the future of music.
How are we developing audiences and listeners and people who love it and who will support artists in the future?
Suz: Right. And the fact of, you know, all the research that goes to show how music unlocks your ability to take better tests, write better essays, that, you know, learn and memorize things more easily, you know, it helps especially kids who learn differently than others to really excel at other subjects in their life so it’s sad to see that get cut so quickly. It’s the first thing on the chopping block it seems.
When you mentioned you’re like the one man show and you said for about a year kind of doing that on your own, I know a lot of our listeners feel that way when they’re trying to run their projects, how… where were you at the point of… what was the point where you’re like okay I need more team members?
And where do you begin in terms of like who you bring on first? And how do you prioritize what needs… because like I’m sure, you know, like everything needs a second, third hand –
Eric: Yes, for sure. Correct, so I’m the type of person where if I have a big project in front of me I really need to break it down into small pieces. And I love spreadsheets.
Suz: Yes!
Eric: And I’m sure a lot of listeners out there do too, but what I did was actually sort of in a document just sort of broke down all the different aspects of the organization. And if I was thinking about this organization as if it were a large organization, what would be the different departments and different functions? And then within that sort of broke down the priorities and projects that needed to happen as you could imagine it’s an infinite number of priorities.
Suz: Right!
Eric: But when I was thinking about, “Okay what sort of support and team do I need?” It first, you know, I first started with the people we had, so how can we get some of our board members to roll up their sleeves to help us out? Which is common to smaller non profits. You know, what sort of work can I call on Arturo to do with me? How can I find some interns locally who could who could help out?
Arturo’s sons are both musicians and they were in school at the time. They knew other musicians… fortunately we sort of had a steady pipeline of people to help us. But we also had a bunch of consultants and really a whole team of people including a booking agent, a publicist, a marketing consultant, where we couldn’t bring them on staff full-time but we could pay them retainer or on a project basis and they could help us with each of our projects.
Suz: Got it.
Eric: So it was sort of like a mini constellation of people that we would pull in as needed or [who] were working with us on an ongoing basis. We were just trying to break down each of the needs that we had and as we raised more money were able to bring in more people and ultimately enough money to bring in a second full-time staff member who helped me with fundraising and with publicity.
It took time and the organization now I believe has probably about eight or so staff members, so in the 7 years after I left, 6+ years, yeah you know it continued to grow it which feels great that it continued on that trajectory.
But I did that for for a couple years and then I got a call out of the blue from my old mentor from Duke who was running Duke Performances, and two people were leaving the office. One was going to grad school and one was moving out of state for a new job. And he said, “I’m throwing a Hail Mary here, but would you consider coming back to Duke and working for Duke performances?” And I never had thought about it.
We had stayed in touch, and we’re good friends but certainly hadn’t thought about going back to your Alma Mater that soon, but I thought well this is a tremendous opportunity to get an invite from your mentor. It’s hard to say no and also the arts at Duke, and Durham as a city, they were just growing exponentially. Durham is sort of a mid-size southern city that produced the majority of the country cigarettes back at the turn of the twentieth century.
Suz: Oh! Okay…
Eric: And then the tobacco industry left town and left all these old warehouses, these beautiful warehouses that have since been turned into apartments and office buildings and restaurants and venues…
Suz: Wow, those must be gorgeous.
Eric: Yeah, so it’s a city that is definitely going through a renaissance over the last 15 years, maybe? And that felt exciting to go to a place where I could you know contribute to that growth.
You know it was bitter sweet because I was doing all this work with the Afro-Latin Jazz Alliance and also I had begun producing records, so I felt like well this was an opportunity that I wanted to pursue, but I love producing these records and working with the Afro-Latin Jazz Orchestra and maintained that relationship with Arturo even after I moved down there.
So that was another part of my work. There were sort of pieces of myself that started to emerge – the arts admin/arts presenting side of the work, the music producing part of the work, and then ultimately this arts education teaching element which which was a later addition. Now I teach a class at Duke – an introduction to performing arts management and entrepreneurship class for undergrads.
I’ve always had these different sides to myself and have been fortunate to pursue each of those tasks.
Suz: Yeah! To be able to find an outlet for that I think that’s great I mean you know you thought you might pursue journalism and then now here you are in the Latin Grammy world. I don’t know, did you feel differently after that or is it part of the job?
I mean if you didn’t grow up like wishing and hoping for Grammys, you know like what is that kind of experience like in terms of somebody that maybe didn’t grow up with that dream of like being on you know at the Grammys or to win a Grammy but now your work has led you there?
And it’s such an acknowledgement of your work and the work that you do and the people you work with, so like what was that like when it first happened?
Eric: Well, I must say I definitely fall into the camp of people who didn’t dream of that growing up as a kid. I think just naturally because I was fortunate to be working with these world class artists who were really and are really some of the best musicians here in New York, here in the world, playing this music, that it’s sort of felt like this is a part of our reality.
And they had won a Grammy before I started working with them, actually it was the year that I interned with them. And at that time Arturo knew of my background as a musician, he knew of my background working in studios and he invited me to produce a small group record of his, a sextet record of his.
And I really had no clue what producing meant but he asked me to sit in the booth with the engineer and to take notes and to keep track of our takes and to listen and that was my introduction to producing.
I remember when I worked at that studio in high school in Manhattan there was a producer they came in and he sort of stood behind the board and he was yelling out to the musicians in the room instructions.
And I thought who is this strange man? Why is he yelling at the musicians? But slowly but surely just started learning more about producing which of course means many different things in different contexts in music.
Suz: Right, right.
Eric: In hip-hop, the producer’s the beat maker, in other settings the producer can be the engineer or the composer or the arranger. I’m not, while I have studied and have been around engineering, I’m not an engineer.
While I have studied composition and theory, that’s not my main pursuit, but all these things sort of gave me a sensitivity to and knowledge of these things and just having a background as a musician, but also as frankly someone who makes a living organizing things and keep the artists, helping them stay organized.
What I do really is from conception of an artistic idea for a project, from the beginning to – I’m not sure an album ever ends – but to its release and beyond… that I’m sort of the lead and project manager on that record.
So you know choosing the songs, and the repertoire with the artists I’ve been really fortunate to work with really wonderful composers, ultimately raising the money. If we are releasing it through a label, finding the label and negotiating that. Hiring our engineers and our photographers and videographers for the studio. Actually being present for the recording sessions and sitting just as I did back in the day sitting next to the engineer, taking those notes, and making sure we were on schedule, on budget, getting the band fed, and then once we emerge from the sessions with our mixes, working with the engineer and the artist to mix and master the record and then ultimately work on the marketing, publicity, promotion, distribution plan through release and beyond.
And the Grammy and Latin Grammy stuff is a part of the work, too. In that, you know, you put these labors of love out into the world and you hope that your peers listen to it and acknowledge it.
I think the first time that I was nominated with a bands it was just sort of a really lovely thing.
There was a moment of shock in that yes, in our culture people know what a Grammy is even if they have no clue what type of music I work on they say, “Okay, I understand what that is!” So that was really nice, and we actually didn’t win that first time.
That was the year that they actually eliminated the Latin Jazz category from the Grammys. And this was back in 2011 where they had cut not just the Latin Jazz category, but basically about 30 categories that included mostly non-commercial music and music representing minority groups especially.
Suz: Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, we gotta get, you know, what’s going to make it to air… Make it more attractive to the layman’s eyes.
Eric: Exactly, so there used to… there was a Latin jazz category they got rid of it. They put us into the Best Large Jazz Ensemble category where we’re competing with all big bands all over the world.
Suz: Oh jeez.
Eric: Yeah, and it was still in an honor to be nominated especially during that year we didn’t win. They ultimately reinstated the Latin jazz category and then a few years later for another project I did, The Offense of The Drum with Arturo and The Afro-Latin Jazz Orchestra, we won and it was a surreal.
You know a surreal moment. More than anything I sort of joke with people that Grammys, they just collect dust. You know, they sit at home and that’s all they do, but you know sort of more seriously they are an acknowledgment as you said of the work by your peers, which means a lot.
And actually they they serve a purpose in that they may lead to more opportunities. You know, gigs and projects, so that has always been a really lovely part of that acknowledgment that you know really the goal is to help bring the artists more opportunities and that’s what it’s done.
Suz: Exactly, it’s a door opener.
Eric: Yeah.
Suz: You know, I agree. I think also a lot of the artists I come across, you know, they just want to feel legitimized by something, you know? And if it’s a Grammy or signing to a label or getting on a certain tour, so that when people, mainly their family, are like, “What you’ve been doing with this?” they can point to that and say well, you know, this is what that is.
But you know I think it’s interesting, obviously that’s the thing that people go to, “Oh, you won a Grammy!” But you’ve accomplished so much in such a short amount of time in all different avenues of the arts in general.
You know that’s just a piece of what you do and I think it’s important to remind artists, that there’s so much to be learned and there’s so much to accomplish that it doesn’t have to be, you know, the big shiny thing, whether it’s a Grammy or whether it’s something else.
Still there’s more underneath that, that doesn’t get talked about or maybe just shine a light on it, but to work at some of the arts centers you’ve worked at, the musicians you get to work with, I mean I’m sure even if you didn’t win a Grammy it doesn’t take away from the fact of how you got to wake up and do this and to work with these people.
You know, I think that’s important for for people to keep in mind, and I want to touch upon another area of work that you’ve done in terms of your research into the arts and how they play a role in education. I know we talked about that briefly earlier.
I know one of your essays was published in the Twenty Under Forty. Tell me a little bit about what research went into writing that essay. Obviously we said, you know, you come from musically inclined family.
We had a very healthy arts department growing up in our town, but you know beyond genes and beyond that history of music that you come from – what is it about music education? Where does that passion come from to spur on this research and delving into this type of area?
Eric: So I think the – certainly the interest started when we were kids, but then it carried into college where I was at Duke for school. Duke actually published a strategic plan my junior year where the arts were listed as one of a handful of priority areas, and this was really exciting for me as an art student, as someone involved in the arts on campus.
And I thought how that’s interesting that the University is making this a strategic priority so that got me thinking about, “Well is that just happening here? Or is that happening across the country?” And it turned out that it was happening all over the place.
And there are all sorts of reasons for it but at that time sort of in the 2000s – do we call it the aughts?
Suz: Sure, is that what the kids call it these days?
Eric: That’s right. There was what was called the Creative Campus Movement. And universities were recognizing the role of the arts and bringing all these different benefits to their students and their communities, so by offering arts classes and majors and recruiting arts faculty and supporting arts presenters on campus who were bring professional artists from all over the world, there were all these benefits that they were finding.
They were seeing that, you know, sort of the research we know about music education, arts education, that it helps students in their emotional and intellectual development, helps them to develop problem solving skills and sensitivity to really complex issues of the world.
Certainly for universities that had ongoing “culture,” meaning an active arts scene, it was helping them recruit students and faculty who would move to those places to be there and study there and work there.
This was around the time when universities were putting a premium on this idea of interdisciplinary education, its benefits to students, and the arts were identified as a means towards interdisciplinary collaboration across campuses.
So you had all these these benefits at the time and there were these funders the Doris Duke Foundation, the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, who actually convened with university presidents and presidents of performing arts centers and people thinking about these issues – the arts in higher ED.
To talk about the intersection of the two, how they could support one another. The arts have sort of been at universities forever in all sorts of ways. So it’s not to suggest that this is the first time that folks are recognizing that relationship, but I think that there was sort of an understanding at the time that the arts were a powerful tool for colleges and communities and not just sort of elite private institutions, but state schools and community colleges and everyone in between. And they didn’t always require a ton of resources, you know, to give students those opportunities.
I became interested in this and actually there was a grant program funded by the Association of Performing Arts Professionals and some these foundations, so I interviewed these leaders of these University Arts Presenting Organizations, who were experimenting with these projects that were grant funded and taking artists and having them collaborate across their campuses and explore different ideas and questions and themes and really using the arts as as a means towards sort of what I was mentioning earlier about this cross-campus interdisciplinary conversation.
That was a really fun experience in that I got to meet presenters from around the country and ultimately it became my work.
When I returned to Duke Performances, Duke Performances is one of those presenting organizations where we bring artists to our campus in our community to not only present them on our stages but also to have them in conversation with our students, with our faculty, our community, where they’re talking about their experiences as artists, their process, the context out of which their work comes.
And I personally believe, and I know you feel strongly about this too, that artists can be an incredible bridge in communities, that they can help us talk about hard issues. That they can certainly provided beauty through their work that just enlivens our experiences, so that’s a big part of what I do at Duke in coordinating these artist residencies, where the artist is not just as I said performing, but they’re talking with folks and working in all sorts of ways on campus and in town.
Suz: That’s awesome.
Eric: So yeah, the education and the research that I was doing – it’s cool that it sort of came full circle, and I am able to do that every day now right in addition to the other side hustles that I have.
Suz: Right. Why not add them to the plate? Why not? What would you say is most important for young musicians to keep in mind who may have had their hearts set on winning the Grammys or the getting signed or getting discovered… reaching any of those loftier achievements?
What’s something that served you well? I mean is it a particular mindset? Is it a skillset or, you know, certain resources that you had available to you? Like what would you say whether they’re a musician or somebody like yourself that does more of the background work, what’s your advice when all they kind of see is like the top part and they haven’t done the middle part yet?
Eric: Mhm. I would say sort of what I did or what I do when I’m faced with any large project.
Suz: Spreadsheets.
Eric: Spreadsheets! I mean really.
Suz: I love it though, that’s what I do.
Eric: Yeah you can write it down, write your goals down and maybe you won’t look at those goals every day but you can revisit them. I think it’s sort of sounds corny but whether you write it down or not, having some sort of guiding mission statement for your work can be really powerful.
Because a dream, as folks say, you know, a dream is not necessarily an actionable thing, but if you have a goal and I may be getting the expression wrong, but if you have a goal you can actually break it down into discrete steps.
And once you know what steps you need to take, or that seem like the right steps, you can put in the work.
So my advice is always, you know, try to identify what that big goal of yours is and then do as much research as you can about how other people have gotten there.
I’m a big believer in models and actually this class that I teach at Duke, most weeks we have a guest speaker and the reason for that is because I selfishly want to learn from all these great people working in the arts and in music.
Suz: Right! It’s like “come to my school!”
Eric: But really I remember in my own education that the moments when I felt like, “Oh, I can do this!” was when I had examples, real life examples, of people doing the work. And those folks would tell me things like, “You need to become an expert in your music. You need to know all the leaders in your field who are doing the work – study up on them, read about them, if they live near you invite them out to coffee, and pick up the tab for the coffee even though
they’re making a lot more money than you are it’s the gesture that counts.”
Suz: Right, exactly!
Eric: Yeah you just want to, hopefully it’s not a burden because you love this thing so you love reading about it and and googling it.
But then you start to A) build relationships with people, and as we know in the arts and music it’s all about relationships – not in a bad way but just because you can access ideas and resources and support from other folks in that fashion and of course a very collaborative field.
I’d say also just showing up every day and moving the needle a little bit, and as a musician, if that means if your goal is to release your own album with your own songs – every day you are in the practice room.
You’re working on your instruments, on your craft, on your singing – whatever it is and it probably isn’t gonna be that great at the beginning but if you keep working on it and training and getting constructive feedback from folks you will get better.
I mean in jazz, there’s a term called shedding. And musicians talk constantly about “Man, I got to get back to the shed!” and that for them means I need to go practice. And shedding and practicing is a powerful reminder to stay humble. The Grammys and these other glitzy things – signing a major record deal – are exciting, but they shouldn’t be the goal.
They are a nice end product, a nice by-product of the work, but if you stay humble, and I think humility is really important in this work because it helps you stay grounded and helps you stay close to the thing that’s important, which is your craft. And whether you’re on the artistic side or the administrative side behind the scenes that there’s so much to learn and to get better [at].
I feel like personally I’m just getting started, like I’m just learning about the things that excite me and that I want to get better at, and I feel like there’s so much more that I wanna do. And my mantra has always just been, “work hard and be open to opportunities too because you’ll never know what the universal throw at you.”
I never could have expected from writing, scrolling a note at a show that that would change my whole life and that would lead me to work with Arturo, that would lead me to run a nonprofit, ultimately lead me to returning to my alma mater to work at Duke, and then ultimately to work with an artist like Dafnis Prieto, who I’m working with now. We just released a big band record last April.
And he, for me, was an idol growing up being a drummer. He’s Cuban-born, a MacArthur winning, Genius Grant winner, an incredible composer, drummer, bandleader, and educator.
And sort of the same risk that I took in writing to Arturo many years after that reached out to Dafnis saying, “I really admire your work I’d love to do something with you.”
And to his credit he wrote me back and said, “Let’s talk,” and when I asked him, “Well what is your dream project?” he took me seriously and said, “I’ve always wanted to do a big band record.”
But he knew that I had worked on all these big band records and knew how to go about doing that. And, you know, we gave ourselves a long ramp and we raised the money, and ultimately is my first experience self-releasing project on his label. So all the things that previously had been delegated to the record label Dafnis said, “You know let’s do it ourselves.”
We had shopped it a little bit, but sort of felt like there wasn’t enough enthusiasm to give it what we wanted to give it, so these products become your baby. You want to give them the best.
And through that experience I learned about all aspects. I knew about these these things, but I had never done them myself. Everything from the album art, to the distribution – online, physical – all these things that we know are part of the work but actually was able to do it myself with Dafnis. So it was just a great experience and very, sort of, empowering at the same time.
Suz: Sounds like it. I wanna like interview you like all day long about all the different projects you did. It’s just fascinating to me all the different avenues that you’ve taken your career, but we do have to wrap it up with my four rapid fire questions.
Eric: Alright!
Suz: You know I think there’s so much to be learned so far just in terms of perseverance and networking. You know, definitely, I mean someone from your educational background, I mean you certainly have the capabilities of doing stuff, but like you said even at the young, you know, early twenties, there are other people that might have had more experience than you, but you asked.
You know, there’s so much to be said for asking and just going after things and networking and paying for that cup of coffee, and you know, making those relationships happen, because ultimately it comes down to people want to work with who they enjoy working with. Show people that you’re a kind individual, that you’re passionate about the work that you do – that’s like half the battle I feel.
Eric: Yes, yes. Trust is a big thing. Being comfortable with your collaborators – yes you nailed it.
Suz: Well, I know from my friends who are producers that’s one of their top things – they have to make the person, you know, feel able to trust them in a role like yours.
So here come the questions: What first comes to mind if you could choose one super power, what would it be?
Eric: Maybe flying? because I’m terrified of heights, and I would love to overcome that. Yeah.
Suz: And if time travel was possible what’s one lesson you’d like to go back and tell yourself?
Eric: Don’t be scared. Just go for it, you know, just go for it. Just know it will all work out.
Suz: Absolutely! Invite three musicians, living or dead, this will be hard because I know you know a lot of them, three musicians to your house for dinner.
Eric: Oh man! I’ve always loved this question. I’m not sure I’ve ever answered it before though. I think Charlie Parker, the great jazz saxophonist, one of the first CD’s I ever got. When I started playing saxophone at Floral Park-Bellerose School, my dad gave me The Essential Charlie Parker and it was probably pretty weird at the time but I was 7/8 years old listening Charlie Parker bee-bop. So he would be the first.
Suz: That’s awesome.
Eric: I think the second would probably be the the great Cuban singer Celia Cruz, one of the great voices of Cuba of all time. And then third would probably be John Lennon, because the Beatles were one of my first loves thanks to my family. And just a genius, incredible musician. I’d be fascinated by what we’d all talk about.
Suz: I was just going to say it’s a very eclectic group, but I love it! I love it.
Eric: Yeah, it reveals a lot about my musical interests or tastes – wide ranging.
Suz: I love it! So this podcast is all about taking action, and so usually I give a downloadable action sheet but since we don’t have those with the interviews what’s one action you’d like our listeners to take? What’s something you’d like them to go do this week?
Eric: I’m gonna give everyone the homework of writing down your professional mission statement. And try to keep it to no more than three sentences. And in it, I want you all to identify your professional goal or goals, the things that are unique to you and what you bring to the table, and how do you aim to get there.
Suz: I love it. That’s awesome.
Eric: And I know three sentences sounds like crazy to accomplish all that, but maybe tackle some of it.
Suz: Keep it simple!
Eric: Keep it simple and write it down somewhere – either in a journal or in a Google Doc – somewhere where you can find it so you can refer to it every so often.
And I think that on those tough days, just having a record of that somewhere will keep you grounded and will remind you of your unique skills and what is unique about what you bring to the table that no one else in the world and history could ever do like you do. And it also reminds you of where you want to go.
Suz: Right, ‘cause there’s a lot of distracting stuff out there that kind of takes us off course.
Eric: That’s right, that’s right. So I know it sounds corny but a personal professional mission statement and give it a shot.
I worked on one years ago, and I look back at it every so often and it’s fun to think about how certain parts of it have worked out and certain parts of it I’m still working on. So, yeah! That’s my homework, everyone.
Suz: That’s awesome. I like it. Well guys if you want to go do that I highly suggest you do those steps that Eric has just listed out for us, they’re written out in the show notes, so go check the show notes page.
And yeah, I highly encourage that. Thank you so much for taking time to share your journey with us. It’s such an interesting one, we don’t get your stories a lot.
Eric: Well I appreciate it. I mean it’s a huge honor to be here and as an avid listener it’s yeah a thrill to chat and catch up with an old friend.
Suz: Yeah! Thanks for this high school reunion. Alright, take care!
Eric: Thanks
Man, I know that was a long one and there were still so many questions I wanted to ask him!
Since our conversation, which was recorded back during the holidays, Eric has gone on to win his THIRD Grammy, not counting his two Latin Grammy wins, for his work with Dafnis Prieto! Just a few short weeks ago he won as producer for Best Latin Jazz Album for Prieto’s Back to the Sunset.
We’re so proud of him back in our lil’ home town. But aside from the accolades what I’m most proud to know Eric for is his ability to go after what he wants.
It’s so easy in this industry to start following other people’s dreams, or to stay in one area of the business because it feels too risky to pivot.
I hope we all never lose that naïveté we have in our youth to just go for it!
And if you have lost it, take a moment today to tap back into it. Go write that mission statement Eric suggested and go after what it is you know you’re capable of achieving.
If you need those steps again that Eric laid out you can find them in our show notes. Simply go to www.therockstaradvocate.com/ep53 and they’ll be there waiting for you along with links to Eric’s work.
In addition, if you’re in a rut and not sure what you need to focus on first, try out my Next Steps Quiz! I’ve been told it’s pretty accurate… answer a few questions and not only will I let you know what next step to take but I’ll also provide you with a FREE download to help you get there!
The link to the quiz is in the show notes – that’s www.therockstaradvocate.com/ep53.
As always, I thank you for listening and I’m here if you have any questions. Email me at anytime: suz@therockstaradvocate.com
Until next time, Rockstar! Have a wonderful week and I hope to see you back here next weekso we can get grounded to get rising! Take care.
Key Highlights
- How Eric went from Public Policy major to arts administration [05:30]
- Taking a leap of faith and asking for what he wanted [10:17]
- Building his team [18:04]
- The Grammys [22:51]
- Where his passion for music in education comes from [30:40]
- His message to other music-preneurs [36:03]
- His magical power [43:38]
- What he’d tell his younger self [43:52]
- Who he’d invite to dinner [44:07]
- His actionable for you this week [45:19]
Links/Rocksources
- Theme music brought to you by DC-based Indie/Pop band Sub-Radio
- More podcast episodes can be found here
- You can download a copy of the episode’s transcript here
- Learn more about Eric and his career here
- Listen to Dafnis Prieto’s Grammy-winning album, Back to the Sunset, here
- Want to figure out your next steps? TAKE MY FREE QUIZ {plus you’ll get a free download specific to what your next steps are!}
Thanks for listening!
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